Left Face
Join Adam Gillard and Dick Wilkinson while they talk politics and community engagement in Pikes Peak region.
Left Face
The Oath Never Expires: Veterans Against Authoritarianism
The line between patriotism and authoritarianism has never been so clearly drawn. As veterans gather at Union Station to stand between ICE agents and American citizens, we're witnessing a powerful example of what it truly means to honor one's oath to the Constitution.
This episode explores the psychological processes that enable military personnel to normalize increasingly problematic actions against their fellow citizens. The gradual normalization of troops in civilian spaces creates a dangerous precedent where what begins as mundane duties can escalate to confrontations with Americans exercising their constitutional rights. Veterans Adam Gillard and Dick Wilkinson examine this slippery slope through the lens of their military experience, offering unique insight into how indoctrination and team loyalty can blur ethical boundaries.
We dive into the concerning exodus of scientists and medical professionals from government agencies like the CDC, where expertise is being replaced by political loyalty. When people with PhDs in unrelated fields are appointed to oversee public health decisions, the consequences reach far beyond partisan politics into the realm of public safety. The parallels to historical authoritarian regimes silencing scientific voices are impossible to ignore.
The conversation takes a passionate turn when discussing symbols of resistance and what it means to display the American flag during political protest. Should veterans fly the flag upside down as a distress signal, or is there greater power in reclaiming patriotic symbols from those who would undermine democratic institutions?
Join us for this thought-provoking discussion about what it means to honor one's oath in challenging times. If you're concerned about the increasing militarization of civilian spaces and the erosion of democratic norms, this episode offers both sobering analysis and inspiring examples of veterans taking action.
Listen now and consider: what lines would you refuse to cross, and how can we protect our democracy before it's too late?
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Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Left Face. I am your co-host, adam Gillard, along with Dick Wilkinson. How are you doing this morning, dick?
Speaker 2:Good morning, adam, I'm doing well.
Speaker 1:Good, good, good. Yeah. Left Face is your Pikes Peak Region's political podcast, brought to you by a couple of veterans just trying to give our perspective on things. Before we get started into our big discussion today, I want to cover a couple of local events that are coming up. One I don't think it'll get out in time, but two folks are giving a presentation at Indivisible tonight Rob and Melissa, about Christian nationalism Phenomenal presentation, so I'll try to get that link posted along with the show notes and things like that. They usually record it and there's one from a couple of years ago on our website that I'm sure is going to be updated with more current events and numbers and figures, because they're the ones that really pulled out that the district 20 school board elections raised like half a million dollars in dark money. So they do a lot of research and it's an incredible presentation that they put on. So look for a link for that from us.
Speaker 1:Another big thing that we have is this Sunday. Phil Weiser was looking to come into town and talk to some vets and things like that, so we set something up at the IBEW hall on Sunday for him to come down. He's running for governor now and I've heard him speak a few times. He changes the energy in a room when he speaks, which is not what all political candidates can do. So if you can make it out for that, that'd be great. And then Monday we're going to have another protest downtown, so that'll be at Bancroft Park. There's going to be a labor union picnic, you know that starts off the day, and then down at City Hall we'll be protesting at like one o'clock, I think, when we start there. So a lot of activities this weekend to stay current in your community.
Speaker 2:I think I'm going to be attending that one on Sunday. Like you know, I'm 60% 70% without having a plan, I think you know, I've got it penciled in. Yeah, I've got it penciled in, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whenever these guys come to town, you know they're looking for our experience, the story. So you got to show up and let them know what's going on. And it's, you know, busy weekend here in Colorado Springs anyways, because of the balloon liftoff and everything like that. I don't know, have you been down to that ever?
Speaker 2:No, I mean Albuquerque was big on hot air.
Speaker 1:That's right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're kind of from the motherland there, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know people from New Mexico that come up here for that event. So that reminds me I should get in touch with them if they're going to be in town, because I have one buddy that I used to fly with right. I would crew his balloon and fly with him and stuff, and so if he comes up here, I could get a ride.
Speaker 1:Oh, that'd be pretty sweet. Yeah, they'll do little touchdowns in a prospect lake and try to take off from it. Yeah, touch and go's in the water Doesn't always. That's what we're here for.
Speaker 2:Since we're on our side trek here the first time I ever rode in one I've ridden in it three times now I think, oh cool. But the first time I ever rode in a hot air balloon, it was me, my son and the pilot, the guy that owns the balloon and we were coming down. You know there's no brakes, right, right, we've got to say there's no brakes. So lateral movement is the enemy of a landing, right, okay, you want to be able to just float down and like just touch down, yeah. But if you're moving, you know sideways you're going to drag, yeah, right, and you also can't land on. Usually it's harder to land on things like parking lots and flat surfaces, for that reason. Uh, you want to land in softer stuff like sand or grass? Yeah, man, we landed in a sandy like dry riverbed thing and just basket, tipped over and the balloon, you know, yawed a bit and then came back up and then we took off and went another like 20 yards and landed again. Dang, it was a rough, it was a rough deal is that?
Speaker 1:is that like standard landing? No no, that that was I've we.
Speaker 2:I mean out there it happens quite a bit, yeah, you got to be ready for it every time. Yeah, yeah, that's basically it. You got to be ready for that to happen every time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be cool, but yeah, so it's a busy weekend here. But the rally you know, the rallies around town we haven't been getting as much during the summer, you know. I think October's will be a lot bigger, I think October's will be a lot bigger. But I just want to point out the importance of people still coming out and just showing solidarity with all the causes that are going on right now. There's so much that everybody's kind of upset about.
Speaker 1:It's good to go out there and, you know, be a part of the community and find where you can put that energy, because not all of us can be like the folks down at Union Station right now.
Speaker 1:Have you seen the Jolly Ginger and his troop down there?
Speaker 1:So I can't remember what platform he's on or whatever, but Jolly Ginger is the guy's tag and they're down there occupying Union Station, making sure that the ICE folks aren't there, making sure that there's no threats against violence and things like that, and it's just a bunch of veterans. I saw that the ICE folks had parked on a no parking, like they parked up on the curb and things like that, and they just surrounded the car and started speaking facts and, just you know, talking about how, like the diluted down law enforcement that ICE provides isn't keeping anybody safe. You know like they're not trained like real law enforcement officers for like civil protections and things like that. You know they're trained differently and now they're just being weaponized against the American people, along with the National Guard now too. So you know states like Mississippi that are sending their national guard up there when they have a higher merger rate than you know pretty much everybody in the country. It's absolutely so hypocritical and just ridiculous how everybody's kowtowing to Trump right now it's very performative right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's every. Every governor that wants to participate is is looking for some tokens of of favors or something like that. Well, I mean they know, or showing solidarity to the I don't know regime, if you want to call it that.
Speaker 1:Well, there's always such a cycle of people coming in and out of that regime too, because he's so fickle on everything. Yeah, everybody's jockeying for the next position. So it's a disgusting state of affairs when you look at it, because, when you look at it, because when you look at that staff meeting that he had the other day and they just went around the table like, oh, you should get a Nobel Prize because you're changing the name to the Department of War, good job.
Speaker 2:I guess the first time that they all sat down and did that it worked. I don't know whatever it worked means, but either they all got some breathing room with cabinet members for a little while so they could go and try and just go back to work and not be getting scrutinized.
Speaker 2:or they got money out of it from the budget perspective of the big beautiful bill is going to give. Who can tell me I'm the prettiest, is going to get the most money from the department. I don't know, but whatever it was, it must have worked. Yeah, because that's why every time they have a cabinet meeting it's that it's three hours, four hours long, because the warm-up is two hours of how beautiful you are. Right, and then they have maybe an hour where they talk about actual work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think they try to get him sleepy so he doesn't really pay attention. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Get him long into the meeting. Just keep saying nice things until he's totally checked out, right yeah.
Speaker 1:He'll just believe whatever they tell him, and that's how Kennedy gets away with removing vaccines from shelves.
Speaker 2:I'm going last. This time they're all drawn straws of who gets to go last instead of who gets to go first. Usually when you want to talk to the commander, you want to go first, right, so that you got the most attention in the most time Right. And if that person wants to just give you more clock, you get more clock Right.
Speaker 1:But if you're at the end odds are your clock got ate up by somebody else, right, he's already standing up as you're talking, whatever, uh, talk to my deputy, you know. And so that, yeah, that's it, yeah, what's going on, and he just your managers, exactly so he just surrounds himself with these, yes, men that these you know hacks that just want to be, you know, attached to his coattails, and yeah, and again, again, somebody who is all over the epstein files, who is just incredibly dirty, shady person in general, and all these folks are just like lining up to be in this cult. That's why it's so refreshing to see a group of veterans standing outside of Union Station and saying, like this is enough, right.
Speaker 2:I agree, yeah, and as we all you know anybody that's listening to this, most of us being veterans we understand our oath is for life, right? If you take that oath, you take it forever. For commissioned officers I was talking to Adam this morning and if you ever received a presidential-level commission, that's technically in place for life as well. And so when you retire, after 20 years, your commission is intact. After 20 years, your commission is intact, and so you're basically it's kind of like you could be called a forever individual ready reserve kind of thing, right, and but of course you don't.
Speaker 2:You don't have any orders or status, you just your commission's on the rolls and you're on the retired rolls. It's different than resigning your commission, which is when, let's say, somebody does 10 years, gets out as a captain and then goes and becomes a dentist. That person has resigned their commission and so they are no longer on the roles, right, interesting, and so there's a legal status that's different there. Yeah, so I was mentioning to Adam that I'm curious about the idea and it would require I need a barracks lawyer, right, preferably from the jack barracks, but you know if I'll take one from the infantry barracks because you know they figure, yeah, they have more exposure yeah, right process and even a jag half my platoon, you know.
Speaker 1:So anyways, I'm an army guy, so you know that's I, half my platoon, you know.
Speaker 2:So, anyways, I'm an army guy, so you know that's I get to throw some rocks every now and then. But I'd love to have some some clarity on this because I'm curious if, if, if someone who holds a legal status as a commissioned officer, if they are at a protest and they get injured or or, you know, we'll even say attacked, you know whatever. I don't think the troops are out like attacking people, but let's say there is a scuffle and one of them is they know that they're commissioned officer, however, they've identified themselves, whatever that is, if a service member harmed them, would that be the same as harming someone who's still on orders as an officer? From a legal perspective, is there any greater penalty for attacking a retired officer versus a regular civilian from a UCMJ legal perspective? I don't know. I know that it is possible for UCMJ activity to be exercised against someone again for the rest of their life, even after they've retired, if the crime was committed while they were under orders, right, and so that UCMJ legalities extend beyond just your time of service in certain cases. So I don't know, right, like I really don't know what would be official, unofficial, legal, illegal. I don't know, yeah Right, legal, illegal, I don't know, yeah, right, but it seems like there's an opportunity there to have some sort of willing force of you know, band together type people that would, you know, be able to at least be present, like a different type of presence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at a, at a rally, protest or you know, straight up showdown, like in la right when they were showdowns, sitting out in the streets, yeah, what if there was a hundred people with all with, like, green t-shirts on and that meant they were all retired officers that were there to, you know, discourage misuse or illegal orders? Right, basically, we're just here to watch and observe if illegal orders are being executed. That could be the posture, right, Not so much I'm here to protest or I'm here to rally against these troops that are here, but I am here to see if commanders start to give illegal orders or if activities that are clearly illegal start to happen. Yeah, sort of an observer type thing. But of course, if you put me in harm's way, I'm also have this special status and so kind of like the press almost, you know, in a war zone type thing, you know.
Speaker 1:And so kind of like the press, almost, you know, in a war zone type thing. You know, one thing that is kind of brought to mind is that a lot of times, folks that are in uniform doing things just being aggressive, in general they don't realize what they're doing until they're told that they're doing something wrong. Sure, you know, like once you start going forward, you just go forward. If there's a wall in your way, you get through the wall. Yeah, you know, people don't really. And just you know, recently we had some protesters because things are getting more testy and people are getting more violent around town with our protests and things like that. Okay, you know, we had Jim Jordan in town last week. Okay, and if there's ever been a truer guardian of pedophiles it is Jim Jordan. Oh gosh, that dude is absolute garbage. He protected the pedophiles at Ohio State when folks were getting raped and things like that, and now he's hiding all of Trump's stuff. So yeah, he's a true guardian of pedophiles right there. So we had some folks out there protesting Bold statement from Adam.
Speaker 1:Thanks for educating me on that. I mean, I believe you.
Speaker 2:I don't know about most of that. I don't pay much attention to him other than we're mad that he never wears a jacket in the Senate floor or whatever. And now you got an old boy from Pennsylvania. That's like jacket. I don't even own pants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, we had somebody out there and a guy you know we had protesters, just you know, doing what protesters do, just mouthing off really. And a guy came up and was talking and as he was talking he took the bottle in his hand and kind of like changed his grip on it to like to grab the handle type of thing, and he approached they always go after like the smallest woman too there. It's pretty pathetic. But as he was walking up, another guy came up and said hey, what are you doing with that wine bottle, holding it like that? And he said, like, when he said that to the guy, the guy looked down at his hand and was like I don't know, oh shit, I am kind of holding this as a weapon and he put it back in his hand and kind of backed off.
Speaker 1:He said it was weird to see like that click in his mind like wait, I am kind of being aggressive here and holding a weapon now into the coming into this with a weapon. And so, like he said, it was interesting, you know having you know the shield of commissioned officers, kind of protecting folks or like kind of like watching folks. You know how do or why is our military personnel so susceptible to being indoctrinated like this to where they just follow blindly until the end? I mean, I've seen videos of after World War II where they showed the Nazis videos of the concentration camps and some of the folks looking at the thing were stoned. They didn't show emotion but some of them were ashamed and you could see the shock. But they were still wearing that uniform every day. They were still going out there and just doing their job. How do we break that and why does it even happen Really?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that the function of a lot of that and the function of how so many people that would never have signed up for being participating in something like that, I feel like it's one of those. It's a slippery slope condition of changes within you know your environment within the military, and then there's also the every little incremental push of the boundary. You get that feeling of like is this okay? But then you can reconcile it with like well, I haven't arrested an American yet, Right yeah, so I'm just going to stay here in DC and keep doing this because I haven't't gotten into a fight or arrested an.
Speaker 2:American, I'm just weeding the mulch right now. After you're there for like three months, it like they say it's normalized right, and then something does start to happen. And then you realize, you know you, you don't realize, oh, things have escalated, you just don't feel it.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying. That's a great point, because the next order is legal.
Speaker 2:Hey, these people have shown up and started to get violent in the streets. And then you're like, oh well, now this feels like a legal order to stop them from burning cars or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been picking up trash for three months now, Like why can't I go do something else?
Speaker 2:And so now the job is go downtown, stop people from setting cars on fire and just march in a row to be, you know, riot control. Well, that feels like that is legal Right. And and then you know next thing you know you are arresting an American, you are beating an American with some weapon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause people aren't standing down, you know.
Speaker 2:And now you're like, what, what? Like? You said what is happening.
Speaker 1:You know like.
Speaker 2:I am in a fistfight with an American citizen how I'm not a police officer? How did this happen? And then it's too late, right? Then you're just in it. It's the boiling frog kind of situation, I think, for most people that are never presented with the clear black and white Join the side of evil, join the dark side or join the light side. It just this is not what happens. You know, yeah, there's very few people that get to just face that decision throughout the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and earlier you mentioned the plan process that goes through just indoctrinating people into the military. You know they always talk about breaking people down and building you back up and you know making sure that you're a part of the team. And yeah, you know that that mindset though, wanting to be a part of the team, it's very easy for outside nefarious organizations, especially as people are leaving, yeah, and be like, hey, we're, we're still a team over here, you can be a part of this and we're doing something special. We're, we're protecting our community. Yes, you know, and you just say things like that without saying like who you're protecting them against, and people will sign up, just like out of loyalty, cause that's what they know.
Speaker 2:They know to be a part of a team and to protect their community, yes, and so the level of what would kick, you know, push someone back from that type of service and showing up and perform, you know, saying you got the orders, it's time to go. It would be, you know, the outside observer, especially someone who's never been in the military, would look at it and not understand that part that you just mentioned and say, well, that was clearly an illegal order. But for someone that's inside the military it would take a much higher bar. I feel like to push against that team mentality. To push against that team mentality.
Speaker 1:So the egregiousness has to be much more higher and more obvious and more, just insulting to your sense of what's right For a soldier that bar is much higher than that outside observer, that civilian, or especially the crunchy hippies that we were really talking about. Take a look at the Mai Lau, the massacre where the helicopter pilot turned his guns on American soldiers and held them at bay, like we're not killing these innocent people anymore.
Speaker 2:You guys, we're done with this. That takes a lot to go against this. How terrible. What did this person see?
Speaker 1:It had to be horrific Right yeah, because this is a helicopter pilot that's been bombing to be right, right, yeah, cause this is a helicopter pilot that was that's been bombing villages, you know. So, yeah, but, but, but people, yeah, but they know that line and using like American soldiers on American citizens is a line that should never have been crossed for, you know, for picking up weeds and like you said, like like now that you said that about just like normalizing it, uh, cause I did talk to a friend and he's like, yeah, they're, they're at the train stations, you know, they're everywhere I walk, everywhere where you see them. Uh, yeah, you normalize them and then you can activate them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, normalize the presence, and it affects both sides, it affects the population of where they're at and it affects the soldiers themselves. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Crazy, uh. The last kind of thing that I wanted to touch on today was the current recent firings at the CDC or actually it's not even firings now, cause I guess she's uh, uh, suing them.
Speaker 2:Um so no, that person was at the bank, the federal bank, the one, the per no. This is a brand, new one brand new one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the the head of the CDC. Yeah, so the head of the CDC got the tweet about being fired and she's like no, I'm a presidential nominee, I refuse this. And so she's taking it to the law. Like three or four of the people right underneath her, like the immunizations guy, respiratory illnesses uh, he resigned. So, deputy director, right. So like there's been like four like high level doctors resigning because just enough is enough for them political pressure outside of science is not what they signed up right, you know the like the covid vaccine.
Speaker 1:um, they estimate, against cdc numbers, like three million people that they saved with that and for all the folks that got, you know, covid, after they got the vaccine, it could have been worse. You know all the folks that's never gotten it like, count your blessings, um, but to to demonize science and technology so that we can roll back the clock Like you're. What's crazy to me is they're hurting their base so much. You know what.
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:Like it's going to hurt their base more than anybody.
Speaker 2:And yet you got to keep your people alive so they can vote Right.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean that's why they're trying to have so many babies.
Speaker 2:So they just keep that fresh cycle.
Speaker 1:So you brought it up too, with the Fed chairman that they're trying to get rid of. Since he couldn't get rid of Powell, this administration continues to flex their authoritarian muscle. What is the breaking point? What do you think is it going to take for enough of his folks to realize that this guy is not the person we want?
Speaker 2:Well, if we go back to our historical references, um, the scientific community during world war two, in a lot of uh, certain, in certain parts of the world, certain countries, scientists were, uh, also same thing. It was required that scientists had to be silenced or rebuked or ostracized so that if they spoke out against you know, the idea of eugenics or the idea of the racist concepts of you know certain regimes, right, they're like, no, that's not backed by anything that we understand. Right, those people would be disappeared. And so the function of needing to control the message, control the narrative, control the media and have that, even something like science in lockstep with the rest of the message. It abuses those folks, like scientists, right, when they are caught between political affiliation, which most of them doesn't affect their professional ideas at all, right, or their professional ideas and basically their obligations as doctors and scientists that are doing medical research, because they take their own oath.
Speaker 2:It's not trivial for them that they can't just capitulate to political pressure. But does society get up in arms when a totalitarian or authoritarian regime pushes on the scientists to shut them up?
Speaker 1:It doesn't usually get the regular population stirred up Because the scientists are smart enough to just leave and go to another country, they do, you know. And when smart, when smart people start leaving like let's tell you something.
Speaker 2:Who's left to be in charge? Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's really in this particular example of the CDC and the vaccine boards and, you know, department of Health and Human Services, all of that that is. You know you got to be worried when people that have no medical background are getting put into positions of leadership over 100 percent purely medical government activities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be like what's happening. Yeah, it's going to be like the winner of season seven of the Apprentice gets to be the new head of the CDC.
Speaker 2:People that have PhDs and so they're getting put into these leadership positions, but they're not medical doctors, PhDs in other things you know, you know accounting and stuff like philosophy. That's not. You know medical at all, Right, and so that's again. It's a, it's a fake, the funk kind of thing. Like, oh well, all the legitimate medical doctors don't want to work here, so we'll just go, we'll hire someone who is a doctor, yeah, but they've never. They've ran businesses their whole life. They've never had anything to do with medicine, right, Right? And so that's exactly what we're seeing happen right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they have no problem looking at numbers and saying this makes sense monetarily to cut this, cut this, cut this. They don't care.
Speaker 2:That's true, yeah, if you insult what you know, especially Donald Trump's type of business people, I guess you would say, yeah, I'm not really sure how you define that, but I think we all understand what that means. If that's who he's croning you know he's putting them in those croning positions then yes, that's a recipe for serious problems. So to your question of where's the breaking point, man, well, people passing away from measles was the breaking point for some, right. So that's something that's. It broke the water for some people, right, and they had to leave. Some people right and they had to leave. I don't really know. You know how the there's. There's no, there's no way for Kennedy's not going to push back on anything.
Speaker 2:He's there to break everything just the same, as everybody else right Like it. So I don't know, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's again got to be noted that the folks that are pushing for all these you know cutbacks on health issues, they all have billions of dollars to fall back on to fund their own personal health care, while also receiving socialized health care from taxpayers if they need it to. But they can still hop on their private jets and go wherever they want to get whatever they want, you know. So, like yeah, it's easy to be healthy.
Speaker 2:That's actually not a bad idea, that you know. Flying your private jet down to South America to get you know laser treatment on your cancer and then flying back is still cheaper than going to a regular hospital in America Right Cancer, right yeah. Like I'll fly down there twice a week if I have to, yeah, that one Kentucky senator, Rand Paul.
Speaker 1:He did that. He had some procedure done up in Canada because it was cheaper for him to go up there, and it's like you just voted against giving people healthcare in your community and you hop on your plane to go get well, whatever, I can't remember what it was.
Speaker 2:I mean, he's Dr Rand Paul too, right? So like he, there's no doubt that he understands the optics of that as a politician. But I guess at the same time he was like I'm going to get the best doctor in the world to do this to me.
Speaker 1:Well, he's like I'm in R plus 15. They can't touch me, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'll just let in a little secret. I like Rand Paul.
Speaker 1:I liked his dad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like him. I mean, let me say it this way, I like him because he's a rabble rouser. He throws stones at both sides all day and that means he's hard to get along with. And, yes, he falls on what people would call the wrong side of what makes sense sometimes, but when?
Speaker 1:people really get carried away with fiscal nonsense. He'll stand in there and just be like you guys, this is so dumb, you know, and just tell everybody yeah, and he is consistent with it, and that's you know what I liked about Ron Paul the manifesto that he wrote back in like 2006 or something like that, was really good. I really appreciated that book. But like that's the Bernie Sanders of the right yes.
Speaker 2:You know yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's down.
Speaker 2:You know they're libertarians they are, so, um, that's why I like their financial position. But you know probably, I know I often don't agree with their social uh context of how they vote and that's that's something that uh the function of politics and how much social and cultural stuff gets wrapped up into what should be a lot more straightforward or calculated, I should say.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So squishy and emotional but much more numbers and hard, you know hard numbers and things that actually calculate. And so when I hear somebody like Rand Paul have that position of being able to talk numbers that calculate but then turn around and vote totally on emotional topics and and like swing real hard to the right to emotionalize the base, yeah I'm like come on man yeah. Yeah, like the chance at changing the tone of something.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, everything, everything rings hollow after that If you still just capitulate to whatever they want.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's like and, and that is the you know to wrap up this topic, I guess, as far as the CDC stuff, I don't think there's an end insight to this. I guess the people it seems like there's already been one wave of some people that have been brought in under the crony header and even they are departing- Right, see what I'm saying, yeah.
Speaker 2:They knew what was up when they got there. Even they are departing Right. See what I'm saying. Yeah, they knew what was up when they got there, but I think they believed. Well, I'm going to see the data and see the numbers and be able to make the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They believed they were going to be the one who could make it work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And they couldn't. And just a few months two months, three months and they're like oh no, oh no, I got to get out of here as fast as possible before somebody passes a bill or a policy with my name on it I do not want this to be part of my career record. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely gotta be a scary having to go to work and think about, you know, the pressure from that administration. Well, you know, for in those positions when you show up and you're just trying to do your job, take care of people, but they've been selling the narrative that government bad for so long that now all these government works are showing up with this immense pressure that if you don't fall in line and do what you're supposed to do, it doesn't matter. If you give them facts and numbers, they clearly don't care about reality. Well, see, you don't understand what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:That's really what it comes down to right. Well yeah, those numbers would make sense if you were stupid, but that's not what we're talking about, so I guess you're just stupid. That's exactly what they say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Just back to what we were talking about. First, too, is the folks outside of Union Station, because that was another thing that came out of that staff meeting was a cabinet meeting was that they're taking over Union Station. The government is taking over Union Station after taking over Intel last year. So all of our you know small government Republicans out there, it's time to say something, because they're taking over businesses, they're taking over transportation areas. You know, like that, this is your government doing this. Yeah, Where's all the small government folks?
Speaker 2:The balance between the desire for law and order and the desire for small government is they're diametrically opposed, right? You know that's, that's one of the breakdowns of the libertarian fantasy is we want to believe that everybody's going to treat each other nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just be cool.
Speaker 2:Government to make sure that jerks don't jerk people around Right. But then as soon as the jerks realize there's not very much government around anymore, they start jerking harder Right, and that's where the libertarian fantasy kind of crumbles.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Everybody actually has to be inherently good for it to work, and it's not the case, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, One thing I did see with that thing going on at Union Station the vets that were down there, they were flying their flags upside down and that just bothers me so much. I understand people that want to do it on, like the individual level. If you want to fly yours at home individually, that's fine. But when you're going out there like public messaging, like you're going into battle with your flag upside down right now, Like take it back. Like fly it high, put your head up high. Like take a walk down to the Iwo Jima monument and see how they flew theirs. Like then come back and fly your flag right and be proud of what that you're doing and standing up Because they're doing more than we can do right now. Like be a leader and fly it proudly, Take it back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree the butt. And now, ooh, I have a butt. I've actually never been a fan of anybody flipping their flag upside down. I mean, even from the individual perspective, I'm like don't do that, Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't do it. I probably never do it. I agree with you.
Speaker 2:Political distress is? We're not. Now, political distress exists on the spectrum of what can become violence, right, and so the how do you determine? Is the system fully broken by the fact that troops are deployed in DC? Is that the? Is that for you, or that person, or that group of people? Is that the line that proves that political pressure has slipped into what is now more on the terms of violence, right and where the? If the intention of flying the flag upside down is to say that, basically, if someone doesn't come and help right now, america will cease to exist. Right, that's the point of flying the flag upside down.
Speaker 1:Exactly that is my exact thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's saying like hey, canada, we need you guys.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's it. Yeah, yeah, we are asking for support.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need geese and maple syrup now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if the geese can have bullets, but the you know that. To me, that's the definition of why the flag would ever be flipped upside down. Yeah, you're in distress, and America may not exist if you are not rescued or supported. Yes, and so protest and doing it as political speech is the inappropriate thing that I think we're both talking about. Right, flying the flag upside down as political speech is counterintuitive to being a veteran and going right to yeah say, because when you honor your oath right right?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's the point. Is the flag code?
Speaker 2:people honor your oath. Yeah right, do that with the flag, the right way up yeah, because you're encouraging them to be on the right team right yeah, that's the point of the message yeah, is join the correct team. Yeah, the team where the flag is the right way up.
Speaker 1:Yes, Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree 100%. I'm glad that we landed on the same page Because, yeah, I mean it draws an emotional reaction from me, but I don't want the defeat. Emotional reaction Like I don't want to feel you know defeat as soon as I see them, you know what I mean. Like take our flag back, fly it proudly, take the gatson flag too, because I I like that flag.
Speaker 2:Yeah like I like the step on the snake. I I do, yeah, uh, I'm from texas and I feel like it's, it's had. You know, people from texas have that, had that mentality even before it's more recent, like resurgence or popularity is a conservative icon, right, I feel like that, don't tread on me. Mentality is kind of part of the Lone Star State kind of mentality, yeah, and so it's always been appealing to me as well and I liked it. When I was deployed to Afghanistan, the Navy folks were wearing that on their sleeve as like their combat patch, because they were wearing like Army ACU type uniform.
Speaker 2:And so they had all this, you know, fuzzy space authorized to cover up some of that fuzzy space on the Velcro Right and the Gadsden flag, a version of it excuse me, it's a little bit different, the one they have is a little bit different, but they have that authorized to wear on their uniform, right? Yeah, yeah, because it was the Navy's first battle flag, or something like that. Oh, interesting it was on one of the first commissioned ships, flew that flag in first, like battle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love Navy history. They got some of the coolest things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's why it was authorized for wearing that war campaign. Like it can always be chosen by a commander to be represented. That's cool, their ship basically, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Right on. Well, that's going to do it for our episode this week. Thanks for tuning in. To left face, dick, thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Adam.
