Left Face
Join Adam Gillard and Dick Wilkinson while they talk politics and community engagement in Pikes Peak region.
Left Face
The Stamp Revolution: A Chat with Rich the Stamp Guy
What if your mailbox was your ballot box? That's the revolutionary idea we explore with our passionate guest, Rich Lins, more affectionately known as The Stamp Guy. After a personal experience hunting for a 71 cent stamp to mail his ballot, Rich was awakened to the pivotal role of accessible voting. Uncover the lesser-known US Postal Service policy that ensures ballots are delivered regardless of postage, and join us as we champion the transformation of every mailbox into a ballot dropbox.
Let's dive into the significance of paid postage for Colorado, the pitfalls of ballot harvesting, and the ripple effects of the failure to pass HR 1 For the People Act. Rich's initiative raises the promising prospect of increased voter turnout through an accessible paid postage return envelope. Tune in to explore the potential of an equitable playing field, and the compelling power of the humble postage stamp in our democracy.
Contact Rich Lins
https://www.facebook.com/RichLins998
Sign the petition!
https://www.change.org/p/colorado-governor-colorado-election-ballots-mailed-with-postage-pre-paid-return-envelopes-bre?source_location=search
Thanks for listening, Stay safe!
v/r
AG
www.EPCCPV.org or info@epccpv.org
Hello everyone and welcome to the All Things Military Veteran Podcast. I'm your host, adam Gillard, and joining me today is Rich the Stamp Guy, glenn Rich, thanks for joining me. Thank you, glad to be here. I'm real excited to get you know talking about your initiatives and what you're working on. Before we get to that, this podcast is brought to you by the El Paso County, colorado progressive veterans. We're a group of vets just helping other vets out. If you need help finding your or getting your VA benefits sorted out, give us a call or reach out through our website. Phone number's on the website too. That's at epccpvorg and our email is info at epccpvorg.
Speaker 2:All right Rich the Stamp Guy, the Stamp Guy.
Speaker 1:The Stamp Guy. Why do we call you the Stamp Guy?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a retired guy who, after retiring from the Colorado Department of Corrections, where I worked as a mental health therapist for many years, I found myself scouting about to find new purpose and on a day that I was scouting about for that, I ran into a situation where I had to put a 71 cent stamp on a ballot to get it mailed in, and it drove me a little nuts. It was like that's crazy making. I found out it was 71 cents by going down to the post office because I had no postage in my home. Interesting fact along the way 43% of newly registered voters report not having a US Postal Service stamp in their home 43%.
Speaker 1:I would be hard pressed to find one right now. Wow, and my wife, she has a lot of our mailing and stuff like that, so she would probably know right where it is. But if I had to mail something I couldn't tell you where one was other than the post office.
Speaker 2:And Adam dollars to donuts. You didn't have a 71 cent stamp.
Speaker 1:Oh right, yeah, All right, 49. I think 49 was last time I bought a stamp.
Speaker 2:Well, and stamps now are 66 cents and this was just an oversized, overweight envelope that the ballot back then came in, and so the postage was actually 71 cents. It was crazy making for me. So I started to make some inquiries about why this could be and I tracked down Pete Lee and Governor Polis when they were here in Colorado Springs at an event just before Governor Polis got elected the first time to governor, and Pete Lee said to me well, rich, if you want to carry the water, you know who.
Speaker 2:Pete Lee is, of course. He's local retired state senator who did great work for criminal justice reform in the state of Colorado, and that's how I knew Pete Lee and about him, because of my work with the Colorado Department of Corrections, and several pieces of legislation that he passed impacted my world. I worked as a mental health therapist and the DOC. So on that day when I tracked down Pete Lee at the Democratic local party headquarters, I followed the governor to the corner of Wasatch and Nevada Wasatch and Nevada where he and some others were holding signs. You followed him. What do you mean? You followed him His bus Okay, in your car, like in my car.
Speaker 2:He went from the local Democratic headquarters to that corner to the day before he got elected as governor and I kept calling him Governor-Elect-To-Be. Yeah, and he laughed at that because there weren't very many people there, and so I talked to him about having all of our ballots sent with a paid postage return envelope, so that no one has to worry about finding that elusive stamp or finding the correct postage, and so that the people who are struggling to buy the next box of macaroni and the people who don't have cars and the people who are disabled and don't drive can have the same equal chance to vote as everybody else. I'll tell you more about why I have this passion a little bit later. So when I spoke to the governor, he said to me Rich, we are going to get that done. It lit me up. It just lit me up and I thought, oh, I can get this done.
Speaker 2:Now, at the time I didn't know I was running a marathon as opposed to the sprint that the governor offered me.
Speaker 2:Again, I asked the governor at a town hall meeting about this. He said I would love to sign that legislation. He would take an act of the legislature. I now have that on a recording that is available on my changeorg petition page where people can go to support this effort to have all of our ballots come with a paid postage return envelope, because it's just the right thing. And circling back to why they call me the stamp guy, I wrote an editorial to the Pueblo chieftain and they started calling me the stamp guy because I want to stamp out postage for returning our ballots. People remember me that way, the stamp guy. So the name stuck, the name stuck and so now I have a hat and a card and somebody will have buttons that will say Rich the stamp guy.
Speaker 1:So one thing when you start talking about this that comes, or one question I have is even if I got my ballot and I had a stamp ready and I put it on there for whatever I bought it for and it's not 71 cents like whatever that's like what happens when I mail that in and it's not the right postage on there?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. So what Pete Lee said to me, former state senator said to me, he says well, rich, the dirty little secret is you don't have to put postage on your ballot to get it sent in. The US Postal Service will always deliver it. And I was like, yeah, like you said, adam, really. And then I looked into this and I've read US Postal Service National Policy, which is that they will always deliver any ballot. And what happens then is that if it doesn't have any postage on it, or if it only has a one-cent stamp on it, the local elections office is required to reimburse the US postal service for the delivery of that ballot. Yeah, so anybody can deliver any ballot by just putting it in their mailbox, and my campaign is to turn everybody's mailbox into a ballot dropbox.
Speaker 1:That's the way it should be absolutely, because People don't understand that it's not as easy as just showing up to the polls and voting for a lot of folks that you talk about, the other privilege.
Speaker 1:You know like, and after you've worked 12 hours even if you managed to get to the poll by 4 o'clock After you've worked that 12 hour shift and you want to stand in line for two hours to vote like it's exhausting. You have kids at home. It's so difficult for hard-working people to get to the polls, or as much as I mean to or to even get to a ballot dropbox. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or people don't know where the ballot drop boxes are. Doesn't matter how many of them you have, each one of those dating guys costs $10,000 or more.
Speaker 1:See, I think they need to make mobile dropboxes.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great idea too. It would be pretty easy, because I've built like mobile command centers before.
Speaker 1:Like, we have the technology to do this stuff right. There's plenty of reasons to say no but like having a mobile one where you could say hey, this neighborhood, we're showing up at your neighborhood this day or this week.
Speaker 2:I'd put that box on the back of every mail truck.
Speaker 1:Exactly, those are monitored and safe and protected. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would really like to eliminate the need for Ballot drop boxes by just having everybody mail it in, just like they got it delivered to them here in Colorado, because here in Colorado Everybody gets a ballot by mail, and I think we're very fortunate to have that long place.
Speaker 2:We are fortunate. So I want to explain that the it is the law of the land in California, oregon and Washington where all ballots are sent out with a paid postage return envelope. That's just one place where this is already happening. Every overseas military person Gets a ballot that can be delivered the same way. They don't have to go out and find postage. Every absentee voter overseas by national law gets it the same way. Every person in my old hometown, gainesville, florida, alachua County, go Gators Gets the ballot delivered the same way. Oddly, everybody in Tallahassee, florida, who did not opt into doing this, gets their ballot by mail if they're absentee and they've requested it, but doesn't come with a paid postage return envelope. Now I've done the research as to what happens in terms of voter turnout.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it's amazing, the people who get their ballots and these are pretty motivated voters because they had to request an absentee ballot but by a giant percentage, as you massage the data and figure it out a giant larger percentage of people in Alachua County get their ballots returned as opposed to those in Tallahassee County Different names for the counties, but, yeah, those two places. So it's only one piece of the research that suggests this is the best thing to do. But you, adam, as a part of the El Paso County, colorado progressive veterans, had a piece of the next piece of research that I want to talk about, about this and what was that?
Speaker 2:Well, the progressive vets assisted with my campaign to get this done in November of 2022. Okay, okay, november 2022. It's just a statewide election, no national elections, no presidential election, I should say. So what we decided to do was to send out letters to registered voters saying, hey, this is why we should vote for progressive candidates, and introduce myself as just a guy, just the Stan guy, and saying it's just me saying this is what we should do and this is why you should do it.
Speaker 2:And half of those 24 envelopes included a US Postal Service First Class stamp, and the other half did not include a stamp. Now don't you want to know what happened? So I'll tell you the most striking piece of the data. So, in those people that were under 40 years old, registered Democrats who had not voted in the last set of local elections but had voted in the previous presidential election, the difference between having gotten a stamp and not having got a stamp 13 percentage points in this one Colorado House district. Well, and plus some other smaller areas. So I got to explain that more because it's a little complicated to understand.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not like one. How did you forget the data to like find out who voted in these elections and these?
Speaker 2:ones. Johnny Clerk's office will gladly provide all that information for small fees. And then there's another database that the political parties can access that can give you that same data. So it's public information not how you voted, but the fact that you did vote, and anybody can access that. And that's how candidates get their lists as to whose house they should go and drop off campaign.
Speaker 1:Right, actually not on the doors.
Speaker 2:And so that's how we got our list of, and we had 2400 names and so 1200 got the letter with a stamp, the other one just got a letter and the under 40 group a 13 percentage point increase. I don't know what you can do that increases voter participation more. In my opinion, there isn't anything that is legal to do, and it is totally legal to give somebody a US Postal Service stamp and encourage them to vote one way or the other, but you're not offering them anything if they do vote one way or the other.
Speaker 1:So a couple of things that I always hear about the mail-on ballots like. It always worked great for the military. It was never a problem to mail on that stuff. Over the last couple of election cycles we've seen people get worried about the security and things like that. How many cases of mail-in fraud are out there right now? Do you have one?
Speaker 2:It's next to zero. It is next to zero. There's only been in Florida a couple of cases within the news about how the governor of Florida targeted released criminals who were told by the voting office that they were legitimate registered voters, and these 15 people that they found it was under 25 people that they found in all of Florida who were released criminals because they passed legislation in Florida saying, oh, released femoral felons, what did I say? Feminals, sorry, released felons could vote, and so the governor searched all the voters in Florida to try to find these felons and he wildly disrupted the lives but that's another story. But 20 out of tens of thousands of people, because he's just looked for released felons, so he only found 20. And there's been a commission commissioned by when Trump was president to try to find the voter fraud, and they couldn't find any. They found a few people who voted in two different states, and most of them turned out to be Republicans.
Speaker 2:That's what I saw. Yeah, it's tiny, it is teeny tiny. And I want to tell you about one other thing, though. The most interesting thing and one of the most important reasons for why we should pass paid postage for Colorado, is what happened in I think it was around 2020 in the excuse me the ninth congressional district in North Carolina. Now this is a story that you can look up in the news. Just look up ninth congressional district, north Carolina and this story pops up because it hit significant airway time. But people forget.
Speaker 1:I vaguely remember it.
Speaker 2:This is when a candidate hired a political operative who went to African American neighborhoods and apartment complexes and said hey, you don't have to mail in that ballot, you don't have to try to get the bus to go to the ballot drop box, you don't have to do any of that. I will take your ballot and mail it in for you. I'll drop it off for you. He got hundreds of ballots that way and guess what? They never made it to the ballot drop box, they never made it in the elections office. Now, the political operative and the candidate were Republicans, and not that things don't happen on the Democratic side of the election world.
Speaker 2:If you've never heard the story of Landside Johnson, President Lyndon Johnson, about how he first won his Senate election, you should look that one up. I'm briefly running. A couple weeks ago I mean you know that's a whole other story, but anyways. Yeah, the Republican-led county election board, state election board in that congressional district said, okay, this election is invalid, we're gonna reconduct it. And so for some months that congressional district had no representation in the US House of Representatives and they reconducted the election. And you know, this guy was so shamed by what he did. He didn't run and somebody else won that seat. Okay, so it's called ballot harvesting. Ballot harvesting is something that would never, ever happen if we had paid postage. You come to my door, want my ballot and I can just put it in my mailbox. Who's giving you their ballot? Nobody.
Speaker 2:So another concern- Does that all make?
Speaker 1:sense it does 100% to me.
Speaker 2:So ballot harvesting is one of the key reasons why Colorado needs to move away from the current where you have to put postage on it to just hey. It comes with a paid postage return envelope.
Speaker 1:So when you say paid postage again, because that's another concern people have, you know, if they send out one of these to everybody and only 20% of the population participates, that's, you know, 80% of your money wasted, right?
Speaker 2:now no, no, no, no, no, not at all, not at all, because you never pay. The entity that puts the paid postage stamp on the return envelope never pays unless it gets returned. Okay, okay. So I don't particularly like the, let's say, the John Birch Society. And so if I give the John Birch Society five bucks, they will send me lots of paid postage return envelopes to get the next five bucks. And if you really hate that entity, just keep sending those envelopes back empty. All right, that's just my own personal. Call it the smallest. Call it next to the smallest conceivable act of civil disobedience or dastardly doings, maybe.
Speaker 1:I like that you just like casually are civilly disobedient.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's casual civil disobedience.
Speaker 2:It's so. Another piece of what I am promoting is for people just to mail in their ballot without postage. Okay, people are worried that it's actually gonna get delivered, all right. What I do is I always take a video of myself dropping it in the mailbox without any postage. There it goes, and then I post on my site. What ballot tracks says to me oh, your ballot has been received, oh, your ballot has been verified as having a good signature, and then your ballot has been counted. Because these are the text messages that you can get back from statewide elections.
Speaker 1:So you quickly mentioned ballot tracks.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:B-A-L-L-O-T two T's R-A-X.
Speaker 2:You know, I looked it up and I can't remember. I'll find an answer.
Speaker 1:I think that's important that everybody needs to know that that's not something that happens automatically either. You have to go sign up for ballot tracks.
Speaker 2:And I think now, when you register, you have to opt out. Oh really, I'm sorry. Yeah, and if someone wanted to post a message saying, oh no, you have to opt in when you register, I would be glad to know that, and the spelling is important to know as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's on the Secretary of State's website.
Speaker 2:It's T-R-A-X right, yeah, yeah, but is it two T's? Yeah?
Speaker 1:ballot tracks, so with two words. So yeah, Two T's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah two T's, yes, and I encourage everybody to do that so they can know. Now it's interesting to understand that in municipal elections, like our last mayoral election, there was no ballot tracks. Oh, really, yeah, you know, because it's. We are living in Colorado Springs, where it's a home rule County, a home rule city, one or maybe both of those, and that means they can decide their own rules as to when they hold elections. And one of the impacts, I believe, of paid postage is that we're gonna see fewer of these Off-year, off month crazy making too many elections. Yeah, I think we'll have more combined to ballots, because the governmental entities are gonna end up paying for the return of mailed in ballots, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the. It kind of surprised me because even the school board elections coming up are kind of like an off-cycle, off election.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what month is it now?
Speaker 1:and they're so critical to know it's gonna be in November. It's gonna be in November still, but it's still 23 off here. Yeah, so it's an off-year and it's a critical election that there's so many things that happen with those school boards. Yes, you get, yes, those corporate school where people get in there.
Speaker 2:It's in people who have really no real interest. They're just trying to pad their resume and they they stop showing up or they do crazy things. Yeah, let me just. Let me just explain a little bit more about about that world. Okay, in, in these Municipal elections, voter turnout drops off exponentially. Okay, it goes from cuz. Colorado has pretty good voter turnout. 60% is is sort of a number. We're high up there with Oregon, california. However, I still think 60% is a failing grade. I don't know when you went to school, but when I, you didn't get to pass out of the next grade if you didn't get better than 60%.
Speaker 1:When we were still in Iraq and Afghanistan, they were at like the 90% you know participation, right? So these countries that you know we were trying to install Democracy yeah, they were, they were for it, they're like they. They went out and they did it and they had the threat of being blown up. You know like like right, people still voted in high 90, some percent or something like that in those countries some 60% for us, I think.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Some 20% of some 20 odd countries across the globe have mandatory voting laws. Now, I don't know if I rack Iran have these sorts of things, okay, but Australia does. Yeah, if you don't vote, you can't get a driver's license. Wow, yeah, you might get fine, hmm, okay, but I'm not saying we should do that. I'm just saying we should make it a bit easier, because I want to go back to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not like threatening.
Speaker 2:Remove the last message of the poll tax, make it easier. The hard part should be decided who to vote for, not to how to get that ballot in. Yes, so I want to talk about voter turnout and one more interesting little study. Okay, what happened in Kings County thinks Seattle? They decided to give, in a municipal election, this chunk of that electorate, you know, paid postage return envelopes and this chunk of that electorate Bounce, without paid postage return envelopes. The increase in Voter participation in the folks that got the paid path, paid postage return envelope 43%, yeah, wow, yeah, yeah, 43% it's like. So this is why you know California, oregon and Washington have passed laws. This is why do you remember the HR one for the people act?
Speaker 2:Hr one for the people act failed by one vote in the US Senate and Buried in that legislation that was trying to help everybody vote and deal with gerrymandering and Voter suppression in many other ways, was language that said Every person who gets a ballot by mail, it has to be sent with a paid postage return envelope. I thought my job was done. I thought I was done. I thought the stamp guy could retire. I didn't know what I would do next, but it failed by one vote in the US Senate. Yes, this was during COVID. I might have been 20, 20 or 2019. Okay for the people act. Hr one. Yeah, it failed by the tiniest. The majority. Colorado would have been required by this national legislation To either changed from giving everybody a ballot by mail or to put paid postage on it, and even if they just printed on the envelopes like no postage required.
Speaker 2:Right, that then they would. Yes, you know that would be a wonderful change. Yeah, instead of Postage, required adequate postage. They don't even tell you on the envelope how much posters it put on there.
Speaker 2:It's like oh Well, I guess some people are putting two forever stamps on there. Yeah, it's just because they want to make sure it gets there. Hey folks, don't put any postage on. Commit the smallest conceivable act of civil disobedience and mail it without postage. The US Postal Service will reimburse, will get reimbursed and we will be part of a kid, part of a campaign. We'll call it a movement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's one of the. It's just common sense to folks that want to hear everybody's opinion. But you can tell that not everybody feels that. You know, shares that same.
Speaker 2:You know they're there, it's an active campaign to get people to suppress the vote you know yes, and Understand that there's many rural people, okay, who who may be on the other side of the aisle, from progressives, okay, who are paying a big price to having to go vote as well. Okay, and so this, this is Mostly nonpartisan. I think many people understand that when everybody votes, parties, democratic parties, tend to win. But what happens internationally, when everybody is required to vote or when everybody gets a paid postage return envelope, is that the parties drift to the middle, because the primaries then become less about trying to incite the, the far left or the far right, to get out and vote for the most left or most right candidate. It's about trying to appeal to the middle. Yeah, and in the middle is where the wisdom rises, I think. I think that's where People have the best sense of what's the right thing to do. I'm just a fan of that Mindset. Yeah, okay, I also Also understand something. How much more time do we have?
Speaker 2:Oh Okay so I'm gonna tell you something else about why I am mostly progressive. Okay, it's because I believe the playing field is tilted Okay. This came to most clear understanding by myself when I heard this analogy. Let's imagine a football field, okay, and everybody, hundreds of people are lined up on the 50 yard line and there's going to be a race to the other end zone. But we say, okay, everybody on this 50 yard line.
Speaker 2:If your father was not in your home through your teenage years, take five steps backwards. If you had food insecurity in your house, take another five steps backwards. If you could not afford books for college education, take 10 steps backwards. If you had to work after school to help support your family through high school, take another 10 steps backwards. If your family struggled to keep gas in the car or to pay for car repairs and there was a lot of tension around money in your home, take another 10 steps backwards. If your family could afford college for you and you went to a high end high school where it's a boarding high school, where they spend $70,000 a year per student for education, you take 10 to 15 steps forward. So you can do all this for so many things and you get a sense of.
Speaker 2:Okay, now you are starting at the other goal line and you are starting at the 25 yard line. We're going to have a good race to economic security by running forward to the goal line. The goal line is economic security. It's not happiness, it's not necessarily a good life, but it's economic security, economic well-being, financial independence. Financial independence is a great way of saying it, adam. That's the goal down here and look where everybody started.
Speaker 1:Some people aren't even in the stadium. They got so many different inches out of me.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, and so the people at that end of the far, towards the far goal line because they had to go back start from such a far distance from the other goal. Those are the people that we're still requiring to get to a ballot drop box. We're requiring them to dig up a stamp. You can't go to Walmart and buy a single stamp you got to buy a book. Yeah, no, no, no, no. That's 20 stamps times 66 cents.
Speaker 1:I'm not doing that math. I never do it either. Good point.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for not asking me how much that is. I don't have paper and pencil, so it just touches me that I have been blessed and so I started way up towards the other goal and so many things going for me. Okay, and so now I have the time, the energy and certainly the inclination to try to change Colorado election laws so that everybody has the most equal chance to vote.
Speaker 1:So what's the next step? How do we get it changed?
Speaker 2:Well, the state legislature has to take action. Yeah, okay, league of Women Voters has said they're on board for this. I'm going to continue to promote a lot. I have a team of people who are supportive of this. Stephanie Veehill, a local legislator, has said she will introduce legislation and get it read across the desk. I hope that's a step. In processing legislation, the first step, I find out, is to just call a bill title, and the next step is to get the legislative language drafted, okay. And then you have to get a cost analysis, and then it has to go because there's going to be a cost.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so the cost is minimal. The cost is less than 0.01% of the Colorado state budget. It is teeny tiny. It is teeny tiny.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's just about generating enough political pressure in the running of the marathon. How have you been doing this? I've been doing this since the day before Governor Polis first got elected to governor, when he was governor-elect to be, and he said to me Rich, we're going to get this done. And so you know, we've been building momentum. The changeorg petition page, which everybody can find by going to changeorg and searching for Colorado ballots. Okay, they can find the petition page and sign it. Push me over the 500 mark. That's helpful.
Speaker 2:We have to get entities like America votes, which is a progressive, leaning election law voting rights lobbyist organization, on board. Get other non-governmental entities like League of Women Voters to continue to support the legislation. They told me that they were going to make it a legislative initiative this next legislative session. That'd be cool. We have to be able to respond to a few obscure and, I think, really ill-founded worries. One of them was the voter fraud thing through the mail, exactly Miniscule, the fact that there might be a few more ballots returned late and not get counted. The number of ballots that get returned late now is so tiny as to be inconsequential. So that's been another thing, that's. And then that's the money issue. You have to find the political wherewithal to spend the money to do the right thing, yeah, and it's weird because it's such a small fraction of the budget.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm optimistic. I'm going to remain optimistic. I may take my dying breath talking about paid postage for Colorado election ballots, hopefully we're considering that.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Adam, let's do something else for us to say other than thank you, thank you, thank you for letting me have this time. You're doing my job. Now Let me wrap this up.
Speaker 1:Rich, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. The stamp guy says goodbye.
Speaker 1:All right. Now I'll put word from our sponsor, all Things Military and Veterans, proudly sponsored by Native Roots Cannabis Company, colorado's leading locally grown and known dispensary chain. Native Roots has been our largest owner since we were founded four years ago and we thank them for their support. They have 20 locations in Colorado and Native Roots is ready to educate and serve recreational and medical patients alike. So again, thank you everybody for listening. Today, rich the stamp guy lands. What's your website?
Speaker 2:Changeorg is the best place to go to get all the updates. Changeorg search for Colorado ballots and you will find updates. I also have a Facebook page and if you find Rich Lins, l-i-n-s Lins and it's the Colorado campaign for postage free ballots, you will find the Facebook page as well.
Speaker 1:All right, I can put all that stuff in our description too, so people have quick links to it. Oh cool, we can help get some traffic there. All right, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. If you have time, check out our website e-p-c-c-p-vorg. Sign up for the newsletter. Also be tracking that. We're having a Veterans Day breakfast at Persephone Grays in Manitou Springs on Veterans Day from 7-10, 7-30, 10-30, something like that. Information on the website, though. Go there, check it out. Again. Thanks for tuning in and stay safe.
